Just heard from an old verbal sparring partner from High School, and that was a loooooong time ago. I am hoping he will join me here to spar again like old times. We used to be part of a group not unlike the Breakfast Club. That was fun.
Since I no longer see Y’shua as God Incarnate, I am hoping for some interesting debates on the subject, and since my friend has continued, or so it would seem, as an active member of the Baptist church, this could be fun. Proper debate is polite and gracious, and I know my friend is capable of that, the public is invited to join us with that rule in mind. One need not agree with any point brought to the table, but one must always state one’s rebuttal in a gracious manner.
Su
Tags: Buddhist, Christian, compassionate, debate, gentle, polite, sparring, verbal
January 7, 2009 at 5:03 pm |
Interesting … ‘you no longer see Jesus as God incarnate.’
How then do you see Jesus? I take it you at one time did believe Jesus to be the begotten Son of God who lived, died, rose again and was taken back up to heaven (from whence He will one day return) and by so doing took away (totally paid for) the sins of the world.
January 7, 2009 at 8:35 pm |
Yes, I did indeed believe that Y’shua was the Only Begotten Son. I do still see him as Big Brother. I still see him as teacher. I see him as having an incredibly close relationship with Hashem (Creator) indeed as a Rabbi of the first order.
I began my research long before The DaVinci code was written, and in fact have gotten into very little of the extra “stuff” that was part of that book, such as the place Magdelain had in Y’shua’s heart. I don’t doubt she was special to him, but don’t care if they were married except as it speaks to his veracity as a rabbi.
Part of my perspective comes from his own words. It was he that spoke of our growing to do the things that he did, and more than that, even. I began to realize for myself that we had the wrong perspective on him and his work, that we had done something to take him so far out of our reach that we could never reach where we had put him.
I have also come to realize that the Jews were admonished that Hashem would never come in human form, so the idea that Y’shua is Hashem’s begotten son may be truly a heresy. Which would explain why it has always been so difficult for Jews to convert to Christianity.
I wish, also that there were Aramaic copies of the gospels that were not originally written in Greek, such as Mark’s and John’s. I would like to know the exact words Y’shua used when he spoke, as I have studied enough Hebrew to know that it would be quite easy to mistranslate some key phrases in Y’shua’s teachings. Where he is supposed to have said, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father except by me.” the word I Am is written in such a way that it could easily have been spoken “The I am (meaning the Ruach Ha’Kodesha or Holy Breath, i.e. the now and ever present presence of Hashem) is the way and the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except through the I Am” which translation would be absolutely correct from a Jewish standpoint.
It is not just one thing that changed my perspective, it is many things, all leading to the possibility that Y’shua’s teachings were tampered with by Constantine and his convention with the idea of creating a melded religion whereby he could bind his kingdom into a strong cohesive whole. There is too much of the Jewish way of seeing things that, if you read the rabbis’ of old, then read Y’shua’s teachings in that light, you can see that he did not intend for his students to walk away wholly from their parent faith, he wanted them to have a more personal perspective of the Abba.
Suzi
January 7, 2009 at 9:10 pm |
I appreciate your explanation, but Jesus claimed to be the Messiah that the Jewish people were promised through the prophet Isaiah. Since they have not accepted the Messiah that came 2000 years ago, they are still awaiting one.
I don’t believe it was Jesus’ intent to draw the Jewish people from their parent faith, the disciple Peter remained a Jew while also becoming a Christ follower.
Another disciple of Jesus, one of His close friends, wrote, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal ((eonian) life.” – John 3:16
Does this teaching not point to the Messiah for all humankind, first for the Jew but also for the gentiles?
I’d be interested in your comments … thanks!
January 8, 2009 at 11:05 am |
Yes, I am aware of those passages. My problem there is the veracity of the texts used. They are all in Greek, which means they are a translation from one of the Semitic languages, most probably Aramaic, as that was the language of the time and place, and it is a sister language to Hebrew. The way of marking the article “the” is similar, and leads to some confusion as well as other things that create problems. To the Jews, the messiah will not be a supernatural being. It is therefore possible that Y’shua was the messiah. Even though I do not see him as a “God” I have no difficulty seeing him as the Messiah. After all his teachings have led many into living peaceful lives, which is what the Messiah was intended to do.
BTW, thanks for joining me in this discussion, please continue, this is fun!
Su
January 8, 2009 at 11:19 am |
Oops! I didn’t mean to ignore your comment about Peter. I agree. All of the original disciples remained within the bounds of their Jewish faith. It was Paul, a man who converted after Y’shua’s death on the cross who founded the faith known as Christianity. His efforts were further enforced with the help of the Emperor Constantine a few centuries later. Much of the resulting “church” therefore, has a definite flavor of paganism rather that Judaism. And there are still many devout Christians who blame the Jews for not accepting Paul’s version of who and what the Master was.
I look at the Jewish devout today, and though there is little, if anything, taught of Y’shua, (can you blame them, after centuries of rather vile discrimination?) there is much to say that they have very much moved into a mode that is obedient, however inadvertently, to what he wanted. Much of the Judaism of today follows the Spirit of the Law rather than the Letter.
There is one other point that I would like to make. Y’shua taught compassion, at a depth from within your very being that saw all human kind as your relatives and close family at that. There are churches that come close to teaching this, though even they often act as though it were a secondary teaching, and only toward one’s church fellows, but few, if any, teach it as the central teaching Y’shua made it, and toward all mankind, as seems to have been his intent.
Thanks again,
Su
January 8, 2009 at 2:22 pm |
I would say that a good case can be made that the reason the Jewish people have suffered so much persecution these last 2000 years is exactly because they rejected the Messiah who came first for the salvation of the Jews and then, by extension, to the gentiles.
Right from the start in the Garden of Eden to Adam and Eve the Messiah was promised and the promise was reiterated by the prophets as recorded in the Old Testament (Jewish Bible) but h He was not accepted. This is similar to the blessing and curses concept recorded in Deuteronomy 28. If the blessings are rejected than it automatically follows, by God’s own word, that the curses will be experienced.
It’s still like that today. If we will not accept the blessing of God through salvation in Jesus Christ then we are stuck with the curses.
Seems a little harsh but that’s the way I see the Scriptures.
Kind Regards.
January 8, 2009 at 2:25 pm |
Oh, I almost forgot … Jesus gave us two commandments only: Love God and love our neighbor. Seems simple enough. If we at least daily give this a good effort a lot of other things will fall into place as well.
January 8, 2009 at 11:37 pm |
Since Judaism does not teach a need for salvation it is difficult to accuse a devout Jew of rejecting Y’shua. Their beliefs regarding entering heaven have to do with living according the mitzvot, in other words, to live a righteous life. Each Jew is responsible for his own life. They are taught that the righteous from every faith will enter heaven. (It still boils down to love God, love your fellow man.) There is nothing in the Torah or the Talmud that personifies evil or puts a name to one that might be an equal to G-d in Hell, in fact there is no teaching about Hell.
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm#intro is an explanation of their beliefs, and a rather good one as far as I can tell. I do not believe they are cursed of G-d. Every time they have been mistreated in the past 2000 years, Christianity has been in the middle or somewhere in the mix of the fighting. That should not be. I have difficulty in anyone justifying warlike behavior in the name of the Prince of Peace. Sorry, I tried to find a gentle way to say that, but it didn’t come out that way.
January 9, 2009 at 1:33 pm |
Regarding living a ‘righteous’ life … to the Jew this means keeping the 10 commandments, in addition to keeping numerous ceremonial laws. The problem is that it can’t be done, and that’s why the Scriptures call it the law of death.
I realize the Jews were/are looking for a Messiah that would lead them politically and militarily. But that is not the Messiah that was promised in the Scriptures.
The promised Messiah was the One who would lead them into righteousness … a new and right standing with their God, Yahweh.
Regarding Christians being ‘in the mix of things’ … Christians are the Jews best friends. It’s the (so called, there actually is no ‘Christian’ nation) Christian (with some notable exceptions, Germany for instance) nations that have always been supportive of Israel. Think of Holland, England, USA, Canada, etc.
There will come a time when the Prince of Peace, Jesus, will return to earth and take up the cause of the Jewish people and, on their behalf, will defeat all their earthly enemies.
Look in the near future for all of the enemies of the Jewish people to band together and attempt to annihilate them. I don’t believe that will happen but it will be close, and that’s when their God will come to their defense, at exactly the time when it will seem like all is lost.
These are interesting times we live in. Stay tuned!
January 9, 2009 at 3:44 pm |
Yes indeed, these are interesting times we live in!
At this point in time I would agree that Christian peoples have, for the most part, come to realize that the Jewish people must be preserved. This may be as a result of the awfulness of the holocaust. That would certainly make sense, but even here there are many these days who try to deny that that awfulness ever occurred, GADS! How can a person be so blind?
What I referred to as Christians being in the mix are the Crusades, the Inquisition, the decimation of Jewish communities in Northern Africa in the early 1900′s, and the holocaust. At least with the holocaust Christianity, like a sleeping giant finally entered the fray on the side of right and stayed there. A fact of which I am grateful.
Actually, the political Messiah is indeed the one promised in the prophesies, refer to, http://whatjewsbelieve.org/, The references to why Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. It has a great deal to do with the idea that Hashem is not real fond of human sacrifice, and that no blood sacrifice is needed by Hashem as a payment for sin, those who could not afford a bull were allowed to bring a half an ephah of flour, not meat and not blood. This is why David could say in Psalm 51 That G-d has no delight in burnt offerings. And why David, in that same Psalm could cry out to be cleansed with hyssop and he would be clean.
I do know that the ceremonial laws that regard the Temple cannot at present be fulfilled, though, if you look at the mitzvot that are pertinent to current times, you will see that most of them have to do with compassion, i.e. kindness toward one another. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot
We who have no Jewish blood through our mothers need only obey the 7 Noachide laws, http://www.aish.com/wallcam/7_Noachide_Laws.asp, and love God, love our fellow man, i.e. live in compassion toward all. Those of us who practice this way of life are referred to as the HaMayim, or children of the flood.
Please continue, I have enjoyed this and am quite glad to have “met” you online. Have a lovely day.
Su
January 11, 2009 at 11:22 am |
Regarding blood sacrifice … part of the temple service by the priests was the sacrificing of animals for the atonement of sins.
Jesus came, allowed to have His blood shed and once and for all did away with further blood shedding. Jesus’ voluntary death on the cross, resurrection from that human death and return to heaven was/is totally sufficient for the remission of humanity’s sins. But that concept does need to be believed and accepted for it to be of any value for any human being, Jew and gentile alike. (John 3:16-21)
Hey … did your old sparring partner from loooooong ago ever show up?
January 11, 2009 at 3:45 pm |
My old sparring partner no longer debates, darn the bad luck! See his reply on my wall at Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/people/Suzi-ODell
(Regarding blood sacrifice … part of the temple service by the priests was the sacrificing of animals for the atonement of sins.
Jesus came, allowed to have His blood shed and once and for all did away with further blood shedding. Jesus’ voluntary death on the cross, resurrection from that human death and return to heaven was/is totally sufficient for the remission of humanity’s sins. But that concept does need to be believed and accepted for it to be of any value for any human being, Jew and gentile alike. (John 3:16-21))
Yeah, I do know this is what we were taught, and that there was no possible release from this ceremonial cleansing. It is why I was floored to realize that one could bring flour for the remission of one’s sins if one was too poor to afford even a pigeon. Yet, even our more commonly read versions of the OT have it there for us to read. It was a DUH! for me. Also the fact that Hashem abhorred the idea of human sacrifice for any reason.
I do, however, see Y’shua as a type of Buddha, an enlightened being whose teacher was the Spirit of Wisdom, spoken of in Proverbs chapter 8 most clearly. And feel that the examples of scripture that say he stated that he was God Incarnate must have been deliberate mistranslations, for no Jew would have listened to him for more than 5 minutes if they had reckoned he considered himself a begotten Son of God. They were taught from the cradle that this was a pagan belief, that God had already stated that he would not become a human and that humans could not become gods.
Now, I do realize what one is taught as a Christian. Not only have I been through Luther’s Catechism as a youth (oops, I was kicked out of 2nd year because I questioned the time line as having no beginning and no end, that seemed to be describing a circle to me), but I have read the Wesleyan Methodist seminary texts, or at least major sections in them.
What I began as a research project, learning to read and understand the Tanach, or Torah and Talmud, has led me to at least an understanding of why Jews stand so staunchly against believing in Y’shua as a sacrifice for our sins. In learning this, I have come to understand that if Y’shua is indeed such a sacrifice, then Hashem deliberately left them out in the cold, with scripture after verse after legend that makes it impossible to believe such a thing. I cannot believe that Hashem would be that cruel.
January 11, 2009 at 3:51 pm |
Pardon my ignorance, but … who/what is Hashem?
January 11, 2009 at 5:32 pm |
I apologize, it is Hebrew for The Name, or the unpronounceable name often translated as Jehovah or Yahweh. Often used by Jews in their commentary on the scriptures. Shem is Hebrew for name, Ha, an added prefix meaning the. Since that is what the Eternal One asked to be called it seems more personal to me than just God, as the term god simply means a deity, and I want to be sure that anyone I speak of or to knows that I mean the One who communicated with Moses so very early in this Era.
BTW, I want to make it clear that one of my perspectives on Hashem is that compassion is the key to our progress out of this plane. That is the summing up of the Law and the Prophets, just as Y’shua said 2,000 years ago. I have no objection to the teaching that Y’shua is a mashiach, as the Jewish tradition is that there is one born in each generation that is capable of stepping into those shoes. Though he did not fulfill many of the prophecies Christians hold out for his second coming, that were given for his only arrival by Jewish tradition. It does not matter to me.
What matters to me is that Hashem taught the Jews that compassionate living, moment by moment, was the core of what was wanted of them. Y’shua taught that obedience to the command to love God, love your fellow man was all he required. Buddha taught that kindness, compassionate living, again, was the key to reaching Nirvanna, a heavenly kingdom available to all who lived by that. Three teachings, from three different time frames, two different parts of the globe, the witness of three fulfilled.
Because of that, I no longer care what else a person believes as long as compassion toward one’s fellows is the core behavior and belief. If you live that way, I believe you will see the kingdom of G-d.